Francis Chan’s sermon @ Cornerstone Simi Valley 10/26/06 Very Good Illustrations for Temptations
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@AceFoxhound – It wasn’t a bad experience, rather a very stark realization that the status quo isn’t good enough for me, that tradition is not as important as doing what is right. And we can’t really know anyone, certainly not someone I have never met. So does a person who claims to know Jesus really know, or do they just act like they have some kind of moral authority? They certainly think they know, it is arrogance and hubris.
@AceFoxhound – So to answer your question once and for all is isn’t trust of another that brought me to what I believe, but distrust in someone who was saying things that I felt were wrong and that he had no authority to say. (Rev. Harrison I think.) I don’t remember his first name. I could have thought two things at that point, either that he was right and at heart I wasn’t a good or worthwhile person, or that I was a valid person for thinking the way I do. My choice was clear, he was wrong.
@AceFoxhound – And I also thought. Why would a preacher say this? It was self-serving on many levels. And as I thought more deeply about I thought that what we know is what has brought humanity this far. Politicians know lots of people but they don’t know as much as we would like them to in order to make correct decisions. A good example of all this is in the movie/book, Contact. (One of my favorite movies)
@AceFoxhound – I never had a bad experience in church. But I never went for long and when what I knew didn’t match up with what was being said or something was said that I didn’t agree with it made me think. I think the time when I took stark opposition to religion was during my grandfather’s funeral was when a preacher said, “It’s not what you know it’s who you know”, and I thought, that’s stupid, knowledge makes me happy, and what he said reminded me of corruption in society.
@AceFoxhound – But I have read many books and seen evidence for myself. That is why I come to the conclusions I do. Not because of respect of authority. Where I do respect authority is when the information they have is jiving with what I know for a fact, so knowledge gained from other sources is often now just a perspective on what is observed. I never met Charles Darwin, but his theory explains a lot of things elegantly and the evidence I can see for myself that correlates is huge.
@AceFoxhound – I have read the Bible and it differs significantly. The “revelations” contained therein are many hypothesis, with very little evidence to back them up. Scientific theories are subject to scrutiny which is the last thing a person is going to do in church unless they want to be ostracized. Getting the truth was not the strong suit of the Spanish inquisition. But suppressing knowledge was. You also seem to be under the impression that I haven’t read the Bible. I have.
@stevenweir76 But I hate to remind you that you still haven’t answered my question. Who told you, and is this person worthy of your trust, that Jesus is a lie? Are you just believing what some random but smart looking writer wrote or did you make that assumption after having a bad experience?
@stevenweir76 Well yes, I am a biology major, I don’t have any particular problems with evolution, although I might think that the chances of seeing one cell invaginate another, making a mitochondrion, and not “eating” it are slim, but that’s just me. The funny thing is, if you dig deep into the Bible, you will see that what is said is not really that different than all the other “scientific theories”. But don’t take my word for it, check it out for yourself.
A good example of who I trust that is Christian is Kenneth Miller. Despite being Christian he knows that the evidence points to the truth of evolution. This shows great character in that he is using his critical thinking and trusting the evidence he sees. Ultimately you don’t have to trust anyone completely, you can always dig deeper when you want to know something. I never completely trust authority of any kind and another effect of that is that people I trust don’t look for followers.
@AceFoxhound – What it boils down to is that I trust people on the experience that I have from what they tell me. But I am also very attentive to how they say it, People who say things absolutely but have no evidence can’t be trusted IMO. People who use key words that communicate uncertainty where they are uncertain gain my trust. I trust many scientists because they use phrases like, to “the best of my knowledge”, or “according to these models”. They are quick to point out their own weaknesses
@AceFoxhound – When it comes to matters of evidence, the nature of the universe and so forth I trust myself, anyone can make claims but I consider the consequences of that trust and the evidence to support what they are saying. Despite being atheist, there are some Christians and Muslims I trust and some atheists I don’t trust. The character of individuals goes beyond what they believe. I don’t look at what people say but what they do.
@stevenweir76 ou are a busy fellow aren’t you? To be honest I’m quite glad you’re still around. Now as for the kindness of strangers, I haven’t had any luck so far, in fact I haven’t really been lucky with just kind people (with a few exceptions of course) but here’s what I’ve learned from it, the very reason I left Switzerland. I cannot put my faith in people, only God. Now I can tell you do trust strangers, how else would you know Jesus is a lie? Who told you so and is worthy of your trust?
@EffieReal – Pray away, it doesn’t matter. I deny the Holy Spirit, and I do so fearlessly, because I know that Jesus is a lie. Just like Moses and Abraham were lies. They may have existed, they may have believed. If so, I believe they were crazy. If the rules are that I need to believe the insane in order to get a pass into paradise, I’d rather keep my wits and burn in hell. Piss on me from heaven and cool me off once in a while, will ya.
@EffieReal – I haven’t done anything bad enough that would warrant someone needing to die for it, or burning in hell for it. In my life courage and wisdom are more important than piety. It’s called Modernism, you should try it. It’s when you accept reality and try to make the best out of it, instead of living with false hope. As for failing, people opened their eyes and realized that Jesus wasn’t coming back, if he ever came at all. Jesus prediction has failed.
@stevenweir76 Then is won’t matter to you if I continue to pray for you. Life is eternal, bad things will happen to everyone, but they will cease for some. I will pray that you will come to accept this gift. So that eternal joy and no more badness will be your future as well.
@stevenweir76 Yes! You almost have it right. Jesus was the scapegoat. Do you know the origin of the word scapegoat? He indeed took away our sins despite our immorality and we indeed did not deserve such grace. His love is so much greater than our sin. Unbelievable? Only in the sense of the words “wonderful” “hard to fathom” or “grateful”. We are so undeserving of this love. We are so blessed to have this Savior. Religion has nothing to do with anything. Jesus never fails.
@ChantelMonique1 – Addicts, whether atheist or religious have the same chance of escaping their addiction. What you should realize is that you are simply happier not being an addict, you can sell that to anyone, religious or not. And it’s far more believable.
@EffieReal – It is enough for me to just be and discover how the universe around me is. I require nothing to worship. It doesn’t matter if you pray or don’t pray, if you believe or don’t believe. Good things and bad things happen either way. That’s life. You live in a fairytale. How can someone do something for me when I never even existed in that time. The idea is stupid, I would do everything for my great, great, great, great grandchildren, problem is, I’ll probably never meet them.
@EffieReal – DO you know what separates Christianity from other religions. The idea that you can commit any wrongs in life and as long as you accept a scapegoat you can go to heaven. It doesn’t matter if your morality outweighs your immorality 100 to 1. If you don’t believe the unbelievable you go to hell. I don’t worship anything, nothing. I know what love really is, and you have to give it away to get it, not collect as much as you can from God. That’s where religion always fails.
@stevenweir76 What I “know” is based on Whom I serve. I know the God who made me. I know Him more today than I did last year, and next year, I’ll know Him even more. He is infinite. Just discovering more and more about the God who loves us is infinite. What that means. What love really is. How much He really loves us. Infinite. Everyone, and everything, deep down, knows God is real. We are the creation. If you deny God, you will still worship something. Humans know they are inadequate.
@stevenweir76 Jesus loves you. Jesus died in your stead. Jesus rose from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father. The God who made you loved you enough to die in your place. To take the entire burden of your sin and your death away forever. The God who made the Universe wants you (you personally) to be near Him in eternity. The God who made everything we know and things we cannot even imagine. Do you really think you can get bored with ….everything? LOL, that’s silly.
@EffieReal – So if I honestly had to choose between living forever, and having a finite life. I, at this point would choose a finite life rather than be subject to praising God for eternity. The notion is childish, and you don’t acknowledge anything I say because deep down you know I am probably right.
@EffieReal – You have explained nothing. I am not a liar, but you are certainly an asshole. I have absolutely no use for someone who behaves as though they have some kind of moral highground just because they believe a book. You can believe what you want, but the truth isn’t as horrible as you think. For instance, at what point during eternity do you think you would be bored with existing? If I could live as long as I wanted I wouldn’t choose eternity. 1000 years, A billion. A billion billion?
@stevenweir76 Stop trying to make it about me or other people. Again, we are just sinners saved by a loving God. Nobody else died for you but Jesus. No other “book” points to Savior who gave his all for you out of pure love. No false God of the world provides a way to be eternally with Him for no other reason that His own gift of life to you. There is nothing, nowhere like God. There is no similar, no real, no substitute and no alternative option. One God. One Creator. Two choices.
@stevenweir76 I said you were a liar because you are lying. You are asking , re-asking and after getting an explanation, re asking as if you hadn’t. That is dishonest. You have (once again) ignored why. I just looked back and I see that I have explained this no less than five times. You continue to prove my point every time you repost. I speak with the authority of one who has met and walked with God for three and a half decades. His book only solidifies my experience. None is like Him.